Speaker 1 0:03

Okay, so I'll just all good to go. I'll count us in, so we'll start in three, two, one. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to episode 57 of the Talkative Toastmaster podcast this week. It's my absolute privilege to have Jim Kukocke on the show. Jim is a writer, speaker and speech coach based in Canada. He's been a Toastmaster for 37 years and in 2015-16 he served as the international president for Toastmasters International, so he's really had that 40,000 foot view of the organisation. In 2020, jim published Secrets to Becoming an Effective Public Speaker and in 2021, jim's second book, winter Road Hockey, was published. Jim, it's wonderful to have you on the show, welcome.

Speaker 2 0:58

Melanie it's a pleasure to be here.

Speaker 1 1:00

Well, thanks so much for joining, and you've got a lot of experience with Toastmasters and I can't wait to dive into that. But can you perhaps start by telling us when did you join Toastmasters and what drove that decision?

Speaker 2 1:16

Yeah, absolutely. So. I started my career working as a computer programmer. A COBOL programmer was very strong at those skills, couldn't talk to people, wouldn't talk to people. And one day two engineers came to my desk and they said, jim, if your career is going to go anywhere, you need to work on your presentation skills, your speaking skills. And they brought me to Toastmasters. And I remember I signed up immediately the first night. I liked what I saw, but for the first four meetings three or four meetings I didn't say a word. I couldn't break out of that shell. So that's what drove me there. It was Arnold and Bill who forcefully encouraged me to come to the meeting and we would go to our meetings, which starts 6 pm on Monday nights, and still do Back in the day. Arnold and Bill would bring me to the hotel bar where we met and we'd have a beer and chat with my two mentors. And I learned so much from those two gentlemen, forever indebted.

Speaker 1 2:09

Oh, excellent, and are you still in the same club that you joined, or have you moved around?

Speaker 2 2:18

I am. I have moved around a little bit. So currently I'm sort of on the roster for four clubs, but I go to two meetings a week. One's Monday night and one is very early Tuesday mornings, 7, 15 to 8, 30 am. To to satisfy those people in the business world who want to get their self-development done and check it off their list before before 9 am yeah, wow, okay, excellent.

Speaker 1 2:44

And what have you enjoyed most about being a member?

Speaker 2 2:50

well, I, I love the clubs. I I this dr spindley when he started this organization back in 1905 and and incorporated in 1924. He started, started clubs. Clubs are magical so I love seeing members come in and develop like I developed, so I just get to charge it of seeing that whenever that takes place. So I love that aspect and I also recognize after all these years that public speaking is a skill and if you want to be good at anything, you better be practicing your skill. Whether it's basketball or cricket or golf or knitting or whatever it happens to be, you need to practice your skill. So I love, I love particularly doing speeches when there's a gap and some of the club needs a speech and I can fill in last minute. That really tests my ability to define my purpose, generate some material and get up there and look like I've been working for weeks on it. That's a that's a wonderful skill to have and I love practicing that.

Speaker 1 3:53

Yeah, it's the opportunity to do those, not only the impromptu sessions like table topics, but actually, as you say, pulling a speech together is is a great place to practice, because often in the workplace we are asked to create a presentation or to do something last minute and ad hoc. And yeah, to be able to do that and have a safe place to practice that, and not necessarily in the workplace, is not an opportunity we often get. So, yeah, I agree, I like that aspect of the clubs.

Speaker 2 4:28

Let me say further on that that of course we'd encourage anybody to spend some time crafting their speeches and practising their speeches. But it is so true, as you say, in the workplace I've been in situations where I've heard look, I need you in that boardroom in 10 minutes' time. That's the workplace. So, folks, if you're in Toastmasters, find opportunities to speak about something, your knowledge about, perhaps your club executive officer role. Learn to prepare those speeches and do a good job on them. Make people think you've been spending weeks on them.

Speaker 1 5:00

Yeah, absolutely. And at what point did you start to do professional speaking? Did you break away from Toastmasters? And yeah, how did that journey?

Speaker 2 5:12

It was just a natural progression. I got some invitations. I guess when I think about the first one that landed in my lap, somebody who knew me through Toastmasters asked me to speak to his professional group and then the negotiation started. I said, well, what do you offer? And he said, well, what do you ask? And that's always awkward. And I presented a number and he met the number. So it was just a natural progression from Toastmasters. But nowadays when you're speaking professionally you're generally solving somebody's problem. So the most recent one I did, someone called and said look, can you help us talk about conflict? And it's interesting. So it's conflict from a customer-client relationship. So I had to think about that. I speak a little bit about conflict, but how do I relate that to their environment? So that's always fun. So it's evolved naturally because of the experience in Toastmasters.

Speaker 1 6:11

Okay, and now that you're doing that professionally, how do you find you know the five to seven minute speeches when you're back in a Toastmasters club? Because I'm guessing as a speaker you get more than five to seven minutes.

Speaker 2 6:24

Because I'm guessing as a speaker, you get more than five to seven minutes. I find five to seven minutes very stressful now, so it's seriously stressful. So usually in my clubs I'll ask for eight to ten minutes and I don't know how it's happened, but I've sort of gravitated towards eight to ten-minute segments. So sometimes I am required to do five to seven minutes and it seriously does stress me, excuse me, it seriously does stress me, excuse me, it seriously does stress me. So, yeah, I'll usually ask for eight to ten-minute segments and then those are building blocks for longer speeches generally. So that's my approach.

Speaker 1 6:57

Okay, yeah, it's as we were talking about with contests and things like even the fact that you can be disqualified for speaking over time. So I guess that the timing part of Toastmasters and the discipline of that is also great practice again for those real world situations where you do have to sometimes only you know speak for a very short time.

Speaker 2 7:22

It's true and you need to adjust. But you know, I will say, if I ask rate to 10, I'm pretty well in that window of 10 minutes. Uh, it is important to know how much content you've got, ask for it and, if given, to make sure you meet your, your expectations and not exceed them. Um, but uh, yeah, you need to need to. You need to be diligent in how much time you need and consume.

Speaker 1 7:46

And in terms of your leadership journey in the organization, obviously being the international president at one point, how long did it take you to get to that, or what was sort of the path that eventually led you to that top role?

Speaker 2 8:10

Yeah well, the path, of course, is defined in our documentation about how to serve, how to run, et cetera. And I will say I'm usually reluctant to take on positions. I'm pretty selfish with my time. I'm generous in many ways, but I need to determine does an organization need me? Have I got something to offer? Will I benefit in some way? And very rarely is it monetarily. In Toastmasters it's never monetarily. So I was very slow to progress through all the positions the district positions that you're in now, the district positions that you may someday assume and then to run for the board. It wasn't a quick stepping stone for me. Any step along the way I'd helped somebody get elected as second VP, which led to international president, mr John Lau, and that kind of got me interested in the process, and so then I decided to run for those positions in the process, and so, then, I decided to run for those positions.

Speaker 1 9:07

And what in being in that position, you know what were some of the observations, or perhaps you know takeaways from that role.

Speaker 2 9:14

Well, One is I just respect. I love and respect our clubs and especially the clubs that are at low membership levels. And then the club leaders are working so hard to promote and attract new members and keep their club viable. I really think we should be doing much more to support them. We've got to find ways. I'll leave it to the board and district teams to figure out what's the best way to support those clubs, but clubs are the essence of this organization. Members join clubs and then you have members of Toastmasters International and virtually every member I've ever met. Whatever club they join, they think this is the best club in the world, whether it's got eight members or 12 or 40. So I just respect their clubs and I learned that ever more so with my travels and interactions as international president. I respect our club leaders. I just treasure the work they do.

Speaker 1 10:18

Yeah, for a volunteer organization there's a lot of people putting in a lot of effort, a lot of time on. You know whether it's weekends in contest season or just the admin that goes on to run clubs. And I don't think until you've done the various parts of that and I'm sure there's even more work behind the scenes the more broad the roles get. But yeah, I just think when you just rock up to a meeting, you know as a new Toastmaster, you really have no idea of the depth behind the organization and the work that goes into making each meeting a success.

Speaker 2 10:56

It is true, but I'm always cautious. You know, as volunteers and attracting volunteers, we need to make sure that these don't become full-time jobs. We can make it a full-time job, we can make anything a full-time job, but these positions in Toastmasters this is a volunteer organization. We need to help people manage their time and understand what's really critical that needs to be done, help them and support them to get that done in various ways, but it can't be a full-time job. It can't be yes.

Speaker 1 11:28

Yes, well, unless you know, one of my clubs is an advanced club and we talk about tragics all the time and we definitely identify as Toastmasters Tragics and I think, yeah, but it is interesting. You know, I think the organisation brings out the best in people in terms of the people who are willing to share their knowledge and experience and, time and again, being around those kind of people. You know that's our tribe, they're great people to hang around. I think, yeah, agreed, um, and so you know, in terms of you did your international, your year as international president, and then where do you sort of go from there? I mean, obviously you're still in the organization, but, yeah, how do you sort of make that transition from you know being there and then like, okay, next year I'm just going to chill. Yeah, how did that work for you?

Speaker 2 12:30

Well, when you finish as international president, you're still on the board on the executive committee. It's an immediate pass. So you've got responsibilities there. And even once you leave the board for a couple of years minimum, you've got responsibilities there. And even once you leave the board for a couple of years minimum, you've got some assignments chairing the International Leadership Committee and working with the International Leadership Committee. And even after that you're often asked to serve on committees to help Toastmasters figure out options and strategies. So all that happened.

Speaker 2 12:56

But for me there's a message I'd like to give to any folks like treasure the skills you develop in Toastmasters. Really test them outside of Toastmasters. So it was, I suppose, as I was leaving the board as immediate past international president, a friend of mine, a former Toastmaster, was chairing a board for a group called L'Arche Saint-Jean. L'arche is another international organization that works with people with intellectual disabilities in about 40 countries around the world. So he'd asked me to get involved with that board. So I did. He wanted help with public relations and marketing. I helped him with that and it wasn't too long. A couple of years later when they tapped me and said we'd like you to serve as board chair and president of Marsh, so that provided a new opportunity to test the skills and to make a meaningful contribution to an amazing organization that does phenomenal work for a group that needs supports to live their lives to their full extent.

Speaker 1 14:00

And in terms of those leadership skills would you say because I understand you've had a history in sales and marketing in large organisations how do you find leadership in a volunteer organisation versus, say, leadership in a corporate environment? Are there distinct differences? Is that, when you talk about testing those skills, is it testing your ability to run volunteer organizations?

Speaker 2 14:30

Yeah, and for me, I was an employee in large organizations so that's an environment where quarterly pressures, annual targets, set important performance reviews, ability to hire and sometimes take disciplinary action with employees and sometimes let them go. Volunteer organizations has been on boards, so that's more about setting strategy with the staff, setting strategy, setting expectations, measuring those expectations. A board's generally, you know, it's only going to have the higher and higher power for one employee, the top employee. So it's different being an employee in a large organization and serving on a board in a volunteer organization, and I suppose I've never had the experience of serving as an employee in a in a volunteer organization, so I would think that's similar to being an employee in a in a for-profit organization yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 15:36

And what would you say were some of the other skills you know that you have been able to use elsewhere?

Speaker 2 15:45

Boy, there is just so many and so many available to anybody who commits any level of work to Toastmasters. But simply running meetings, being able to start on time, end on time, a little basic parliamentary procedure like dealing with one issue at a time and not getting distracted, learning to let the minorities be put the majority aside We've become very skilled at that and being effective communicators. So many organizations need those very basic skills. I think a lot of our members just take that for granted. I think a lot of our members just take that for granted. But you've likely got those skills or the opportunity to develop them to a very high extent and I really encourage anybody in Toastmasters to treasure the experience. I remain a member but I like using those skills, testing those skills, benefiting other organizations by deploying those skills. So find new opportunities to exercise those outside of Toastmasters and I think that will just increase your commitment to being a member of Toastmasters.

Speaker 1 16:49

Because, again, you can practice those skills and refine them and then unleash them on the world. I think that's great. And so how did you get into writing? What drove the decision to get into writing and writing about speaking?

Speaker 2 17:10

It really supported some of the paid work that I was getting. It's like, look, if someone's going to pay me some money to speak about public speaking and being an effective communicator, I might as well write down some of those thoughts. It's a supplementary approach to generate some further income. So I wrote the first book about how to be an effective secret to become an effective public speaker.

Speaker 2 17:32

And then I was hungry to do some more and actually I'd done a speech at one of my clubs about how I sort of accidentally visited all the major league baseball teams in North America and saw a game and Toastmasters helped with that because I would go to a conference in Miami and I'd have a spare night and I'd go to a ball game. So I ended up seeing ball games in all those stadiums. So I gave a speech about that, just thinking it was fun. It was just purposeful to entertain, and I watched some of the reactions and some eyes got really big like, oh, that's super cool. So I decided to write about that. But I found my I wasn't very good at keeping records or photos so I was discouraged. But that encouraged the next book. I said, well, it might be fun to just jump in the car in the winter and drive and visit all the minor league hockey teams in these few provinces.

Speaker 1 18:29

So that was the second book. Okay, and, and you seem to do a lot of writing, I was looking at your blog and you've been blogging for a long time. Um, how do you find sort of the? You obviously like creating content and getting messages across, whether it's speaking or writing, so how much time do you spend writing these days?

Speaker 2 18:53

Yeah, that's a good question. I'm not sure I've got a good measure of that.

Speaker 2 18:56

I generally try to put out a couple of blog posts a month and what drives that generally is. I listen to what people are asking me for advice upon. So I wrote one recently where someone asked a question. He said how do you manage a team that's more professional than you? He said how do you manage a team that's more professional than you? And that really struck me as odd. But anyway, writing upon that. So I've got a list of things I can write on. I continue to fill that list of potential topics, but I listen for what people are asking or talking about, or what advice I might give to a speaker talking about or what advice I might give to a speaker. I'm writing one now because of an evaluation I delivered recently where someone wrote a very good speech but it was an essay and it wasn't much eye contact. So I'm writing about how look. An essay is a wonderful form of communication. A speech is a wonderful form of communication. They are different.

Speaker 2 19:54

There are similarities, but it's important for particularly new speakers to understand that it's not so much. In an essay you write precise words, you can be very clear, but a speech is an interaction with an audience, so very different preparation.

Speaker 1 20:11

Yeah, definitely, absolutely. And do you think writing helps you to improve your speaking skills? Just because I think they use different parts of the brain? I do a fair bit of writing myself, but yeah, just that, always content creating. It's that exercising that muscle, I guess.

Speaker 2 20:40

Absolutely agree. Writing exercises the muscle it. It causes you to think clearly, to define your purpose, and I've done some workshops with some very good speakers, and so my approach when doing those sorts of workshops helping people build speeches is to to get a general theme, generate all the possible speaking points and then ask the question well, what's your purpose when you're speaking to the audience? Sometimes that leaves people flat-footed. It's like, well, I didn't really think about that, I was just going to deliver a speech, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 21:06

But writing, in writing a particular, or speaking, you should always define your purpose, which helps you select the content that you include or discard. Hard to discard content, but it's important if you're going to serve your purpose.

Speaker 1 21:21

What do they say? Kill your darlings. It's hard, especially when you have to carve out bits of a speech and it's only five to seven minutes and you're sort of working out how to whittle it down. But yeah, it's good's good practice again. You get lots, of lots of practice doing that, um, and so, yeah, do you continue to take on leadership roles in in your clubs now, or do you just head along as a member, or what's Toastmasters look like for you now?

Speaker 2 21:56

yeah, I will take on leadership positions in clubs, but I prefer other people do that. It's an opportunity for growth and development. So I prefer not to. But I have filled in in recent years. I'm happy to do so. I guess I'm kind of a reluctant advisor these days. If I see things going on that I don't think are working particularly well, I will quietly reach out to the senior leaders in the club and say so. And yeah, it's more the approach these days. But I'm happy to take on those positions. But really it's like rather somebody new to take them on. And it's an interesting position being a senior 37-year veteran of the organization. People can't help, but you know, look to me from time to time and I'm happy to offer advice, but, my gosh, I want to see people choose a new path find their way.

Speaker 1 22:51

Yeah yeah, and what's your take on the move to? I guess really started in COVID and the hybrid and now there are a lot of online clubs and you would have seen that really evolve in the time you've been in Toastmasters and the technology and all the platforms now that are available. What's your views on the online or the hybrid club experience?

Speaker 2 23:20

I think it's fantastic. Business has been doing hybrid meetings for a long time and virtual meetings for a long time. I'm rather proud. I was on the board on executive committee when we finally relented and allowed online meetings.

Speaker 2 23:36

It was a lot of feeling in the organization for some time that we had to meet face-to-face, which I still prefer, but the reality is these days that it saved our bacon during COVID, obviously, and the technological skills the technical skills that many of our members had developed enabled us to quickly move online. Clubs quickly moved online. It was fantastic Once again showing the leadership and the passion members and club leaders of God for the Clubs, so I'm pleased where it's taken us. It is fascinating. One of my clubs we've got a member who joins us from Zimbabwe in Africa, a gentleman who joins us from the other side of canada big country.

Speaker 1 24:21

Uh, so yeah, it's, it's wonderful what it's enabled for us and I think as well, just as you, as you say that the fact that you can have members joining from other countries and there are whole clubs, whole online clubs based on people from all around the world. In fact, it was Eliza from the World Travellers Toastmasters Club who put us in contact and I'd seen her running that 20-hour speech fest and yeah, just, it's so awesome to see the creativity that different Toastmasters come up with and how they can mobilize people from all around the world. I think it's amazing, you know, and the opportunities that that brings and the people that it brings together is so very cool.

Speaker 2 25:15

It is very cool and I'm very proud of what Aliza did with that project and she really developed the talents of the people who ran those one-hour sessions or two-hour sessions I think they were but just an amazing opportunity that emerged because we are operating in a virtual world.

Speaker 1 25:33

Yeah, yeah, I was dialing in and out of that through the day because it was mostly through the day in my time zone, and yeah, she was there. Every time I logged on she was there. She was like I'm like, wow, but just the logistics and getting all those speakers together was yeah.

Speaker 2 25:51

I mean.

Speaker 1 25:53

I think as well the nature of the projects that Pathways has opened up and all these extra elective projects and the high-performance leadership projects. I think, seeing the creativity that people can bring to those projects, and the sky's the limit. There's no real limit on what you can do with these projects, so it's inspiring to see where people take them.

Speaker 2 26:18

It absolutely is. You know, it's fascinating to me because we've been around 100 years and we've always changed people's lives. The educational programs have always provided those opportunities. But it does seem to me that with Pathways people are coming to some major realizations much more quickly and I don't know what the magic is. I know we've had some wonderful feedback on the design of pathways, but in some of my speeches I've got five examples of people who came to major realizations by just doing a speech. But it forced them to think about their circumstances or get feedback that was particularly valuable.

Speaker 2 26:58

I'll mention one of them. So one of them it happened in my club and one of our members he was working in sales, he was a manager and he said well, I'm working on effective coaching. He started with that and he said so, my project? Said I need to talk to somebody I coach at Toastmasters. So he said, well, no big deal, I'm a sales manager.

Speaker 2 27:17

So he sat down with one of his salespeople and said he's full of confidence, how am I doing as a coach? And he got a blank stare and a wrinkled eyebrow and his employee said well, you know, I'm often not sure what to expect from you. Week to week, month to month. I'm just delighted that we caught that conversation to happen and for us to help him find that realization before a boss came along and said, hey, not working out, is it? Yeah, so I've got other examples too. I won't go into them, but people have come to some major realizations just by doing a project in Pathways. Can't predict when that'll happen, but anybody who does a lot of Pathways projects, I think, will come to some major realisations.

Speaker 1 28:01

Yeah, and, at the very least, developing new skills. I mean, when I started this podcast as a result of a Level 4 elective project, I had been procrastinating about starting a podcast for good 10 years, maybe more, and and it wasn't that I didn't know how to do it. I'd researched that, but when I saw it was a pathways project and I could you know, tick, tick that off and it would count for something that became motivation for me and I'm like why?

Speaker 1 28:33

didn't I do this earlier, but yeah, so I've had one of those realizations myself, you know, and it's like it was almost like I needed the permission or to count for something, anyway.

Speaker 2 28:47

so yeah, it's less than a motivation.

Speaker 1 28:50

Yeah, it is, it is, and I just think there's so many interesting as a marketer as well. I'm a marketer in my day job and I think there are so many things in the New Pathways electives like the social media parts and the blog electives and the podcasting, so that all is very appealing to me because I can find real-world examples of how I can do some of those projects and get experience in things that then help me in my day job. So, yeah, it's yeah, and I just think that's available for everyone, and I always sort of say to people that you know they might want experience in developing social media platforms and and the like. I mean everyone can become an influencer with the skills you can get in toastmasters and so much opportunity for young, young people or anyone. Really, um, I just yeah. I just I know a lot of people say they'd wish they'd started Toastmasters earlier.

Speaker 2 29:59

Anybody who joined says that.

Speaker 1 30:02

Yeah, yes, yeah. Well, I joined early. I just wish I'd been consistent. So I joined with my mother straight out of high school and, yeah, no, out of university, which was a long time ago, and I wish I'd have really stayed because I'd have probably had I don't know 30 years' experience now.

Speaker 2 30:20

But you know, life happens.

Speaker 1 30:24

Yeah, it's impressive that you have done 37 years, you know consistently, that's a milestone. And so what would you say to Toastmasters? Or sorry, no-transcript.

Speaker 2 30:47

Well, a couple of things. First, go to wwwtoastmastersorg at the top to see Find a Club. Find a club that is in your community, or perhaps an online club. I think I've still got a bias for new people joining physical clubs. That's what public speaking feels most nerve-wracking for most of us, for most of us. So find a club, contact them, find out when they meet and make that introduction. Make sure you're going to be welcomed as a guest, and I say that because some clubs are in corporations there are only four employees. But once you make that contact, just go visit.

Speaker 2 31:23

No commitment, just say hey, I want to check it out. And I think you'll be amazed at the fun people have when they're taking this risk of standing before a group and speaking. And you have a lot of fun and I think you'll like what you'll see. If you choose not to join, well, that's fine, but you're going to be impressed with the structure and the development of people and I'd also encourage you if you're feeling nervous, bring a friend, just tell them. Look, I want to check this out, I'd like some support. So bring. You're feeling nervous, bring a friend, just tell them look, I want to check this out.

Speaker 1 31:59

I, yeah, I'd like some support. So, bring a friend. Sometimes the friend joins and the uh, the initial initiator does not. Oh, I haven't seen that one yet, but I can see how that would happen. But I do like the idea of going with a friend definitely. Um, yeah, I know when I first went with my, with my mom it was, it was just something we did together and it was it was. We did it for about five years and it was just really good to bounce off. You know just what we were learning and and what we were practicing. And she still evaluates episodes of the podcast every now and then.

Speaker 2 32:26

So I look forward to her feedback. And in talking about the goings and guess, I don't want to minimize the risk that some people feel. Lots of people feel about crossing through that doorway, ringing the doorbell or going to that first meeting and maybe having to speak before the group. That's a huge risk for people. I really encourage you. We've got a supportive environment, supportive people, people who've been through that same sort of stress often. Please, please, visit a club.

Speaker 1 32:56

Yeah, definitely. Tell people about it Definitely. And do you set goals for yourself as a Toastmaster each year and, if so, what are your goals for 2025?

Speaker 2 33:10

I generally don't, and so when it comes to earning designations, I usually earn one or two for one of the clubs that I'm engaged with. I'll complete a couple of levels. So I've reached the DTM level in post-master's, and happy about that. I've done that twice. Second time I just kind of fell into it. First time I worked really hard to get there Second time.

Speaker 2 33:33

I came to the realization oh, I'm pretty well there again. So for me the goals are more about what sort of impact I want to have. So what do I want to speak about to the club? And usually for me that's got relevance to what I'm writing about or an external speech that I'm delivering, because it usually comes down to communication and leadership in some fashion. Those are just evergreen topics. So I think more about impact topics. That's the way I think about the projects that I'm working on, so not the traditional goal setting of saying, oh, I want to learn my level five in a particular program.

Speaker 2 34:13

there's value in that and I I certainly benefited from that early in my choice master's career. That's not as important to me any longer, but it is important that the clubs that I'm engaged with, that we work to become distinguished clubs, and if that means I need to complete a level one of something, I'm going to get that yeah, I like saying the ticks, I like yeah, yeah, actually that's one of the key lessons for leaders in their clubs.

Speaker 2 34:41

It's uh, any, any team has got goals. If a team doesn't have goals, and what? What are they doing? Uh, any teams get goals. So your goal as a club leader is to become a distinguished club and there's extreme value in accepting that, working to achieve it, communicating that to the other members. And when you do communicate that, I've often been surprised by how some of the members react and respond and say oh, if that's what we're working towards, if we're trying to get four new members, then I'm going to be a guest next week.

Speaker 2 35:13

Yes, I've actually heard members say oh, I didn't know we wanted new members. It's like, oh, that's interesting.

Speaker 1 35:20

But if they don't know, they don't know.

Speaker 1 35:22

It is, and I think some people can. Their eyes will glaze over when you start talking about points and the DCP program. But I guess when you explain it in terms of we do need new members to keep people coming through, to expose more people to the organization, to help more people get the same benefits that you might be getting, yeah, I think it's just repositioning some of that and it's not not just points, it's, it's an indication of the quality of a club and and that's what people are paying for, that's the, the value they're getting from the organization. So, yeah, I try and position it in in that way. It's, it's, it's a measure of the value that we're providing members, which is, as you say, it's that's, that's the whole point.

Speaker 2 36:12

Yeah, and any organization's got goals. Any organization needs to do sales and marketing. You need to communicate. You exist, what your benefit proposition is. You need to invite people to come to your location and turn some of them into customers or members, in our case. Any organization's got goals and leaders will work to achieve goals. The goal of club leaders is to become a distinguished club and we should share that with their members. Nothing to be, nothing to be ashamed of there. And if people's eyes are glazing over, then we need to think about how we're communicating.

Speaker 1 36:45

Communicating the purpose? Absolutely, yeah, definitely, um, yeah. And so in your, do you make a point of going to Toastmasters clubs when you're traveling and roaming around the world?

Speaker 2 37:00

Not generally. Sometimes I'll reach out to a Toastmaster, I know, to let them know I'm going to be somewhere. But the purpose of travel is to travel and expand your horizons and understand different parts of the world, different cultures. So I would say generally not. It's always a treat if I can, but generally no, I don't search for the Toastmaster Club when I travel.

Speaker 1 37:22

Generally, Okay, fair enough, fair enough. And what about annual conferences or the annual convention? And is that sort of part of your annual lineup? Do you tend to go to the annual conventions?

Speaker 2 37:38

I was to the last two, the one in the Bahamas and the one in Anaheim. I'm planning to be the one in Philadelphia this coming August. So, yes, I do plan to be there for some period of time. I was left on Saturday morning from Anaheim but, yeah, it's important to me to connect with my friends and new friends and members who have got a commitment to this organization.

Speaker 1 38:04

Yeah, it's still on my list of things to do. I haven't been to an international convention yet, but one day I'll get there. But, yeah, but I have recently sort of started to, when my last trip to Malaysia I visited clubs and yeah, just such a great experience and I ended up inadvertently at a district conference of theirs and it just happened to be the same weekend and in the same town I was in and they said, oh, are you coming to the conference?

Speaker 1 38:35

I'm like, no, yeah. So seeing an entire district conference in Malaysia, in Malacca. Actually it was a very cool experience and, just you know, have many more friends for it now. Absolutely yeah, very cool experience and, just you know, have many more friends for it now. So that was absolutely yeah. I just I love the ability to be able to connect, as you say, whether it's online and or or in person, with organizations and when you're a toast master, you're a toast master of of you. You can literally walk into any club if you wish, more or less that aren't restricted.

Speaker 2 39:11

As long as they're not for employees.

Speaker 1 39:13

Yes, exactly. Yeah, we have quite a few of those corporate clubs in one of our divisions actually, so it's interesting to hear the membership challenges they have or just the different issues that they have if they're part of an organisation and some of the challenges they have in terms of trying to expand or do they let in other people. And yeah, it's just different clubs with different issues.

Speaker 2 39:47

Yeah, and I think generally we don't do a good job of nurturing the businesses that we're resident in, the corporations. So I usually advocate to corporate clubs I suggest look, you're in a corporate environment, they're used to reporting. Send a quarterly report, list your members, list what levels they've worked through, list what pathways, projects they're working on. That's PR and that's nurturing the relationship of the people who generally pay the bills. Because I know I've encountered this in organizations where someone has noticed a business leader will notice. You know what happened to Melanie. Where did all this confidence come from? What happened with her? And when they find out she went to Toastmasters. It's like, oh well, let's get Melanie to bring these other three people to Toastmasters. So I think there's a lot more opportunity to communicate within corporations, work at corporate clubs about who's participating and what they're doing, and it'll solve the puzzle for some of those managers who say something's changed with that person. I don't know what it is, but it's great.

Speaker 1 40:58

Yes, well, and it's so much of a cheaper personal and professional development option as well, considering what some companies will pay to send people on courses and get professionals in, and I think all of that has a place, but in terms of the outlay for one person, you know, for an organisation to fund that, it's such a Cost effective. Yeah, it's very cost effective. Yeah, it's definitely. I think it is an opportunity for for improvement, for the organization as well. You know just some of those corporate clubs. I think, yeah, how do we, how do we better support them, especially if you're an area director or division, you know director, and and you have a number of those clubs um, I don't not not in my area this time around, but yeah, I've seen some of them and yeah, yeah, it's just, I guess, a part of the organisation that could do with some work, like anything. And so, jim, is there anything else that you'd like to share before we wrap up, any other thoughts?

Speaker 2 42:15

well, I'll only say to all our members you know, thanks for being a member. You're part of an amazing organization. It's changed people's lives for 100 years. I hope you're getting all you can out of toastmasters. One of our past presidents said it said some years ago that if you get everything out of toastmasters that you can't get out of toastmasters, you will never get out of toastmasters. And I believe that there's ample opportunity, uh, and sometimes we need to find opportunities outside toastmasters, supplemental opportunities to help us realize how valuable the skills that we practice on a regular basis are, so, uh. So find opportunities to test your skills and deliver value for external organizations and you'll be even more effective as a Toastmaster.

Speaker 1 43:01

Awesome. Well, it's great advice from someone who has been doing Toastmasters and being a Toastmaster for many years. So, Jim, thank you. I really appreciate your time and the information you've shared with us today and, yeah, look, I wish you all the best for the coming year, whatever you do in Toastmasters.

Speaker 2 43:28

Great Thanks.

Speaker 1 43:28

Molly, excellent, thank you. I'm just going to switch off the recording.